[Lizzy]

Deel 4:

How to Investigate Further

I urge you to step back and take a critical look at the facts before changing your animal's diet; investigate everything you read, including what I have written.  Anyone can write a book or an article.  Ask the retailer to show you documented proof of their claims on the alleged health benefits of raw meat.  Or call a veterinary university and let them provide you with scientific facts and case studies.  

Barfers accuse commercial dog food companies of selling inappropriate products for our dogs just to make a buck.  Holistic products on the market are far more expensive and most are not even tested for use on/in animals.  Dr. Billinghurst is charging a ridiculous amount of money for his seminar and books.  One particular raw meat product found in pet stores is actually using byproducts intended for large cats (cougars or lions) at the zoo. I would mention their name, but they threatened to sue me if I exposed them. There is no conspiracy. There are good food manufacturers and there are ones who are out for money. I have found far more corrupt people in the B.A.R.F business than in commercial kibble.

Vind iemand het boek van Ian B duur? Het kost wat elk ander boek kost... Nou, ik ga hier verder niet op in... Ik ken geen corrupte mensen binnen de barf business en wens me hier niet mee te bemoeien... Corruptie komt overal voor.

False: Chicken and turkey bones are soft and wholly digestible.  Especially baby back and necks.
Truth:  History and present records show that this is completely untrue. Thousands of dogs have died or been severely injured, over the years, from consuming raw fowl bones. Farm dogs and Coyotes are consistently treated for bone fragments and splintering in their stomachs or throats after having killed live chickens, hens and turkeys - yes, even baby fowl.  Another way small fowl bones have painfully harmed dogs is they become jammed or lodged between teeth or through the palate.  I receive email frequently from ex-barfers whose dogs have been harmed or killed from being fed raw chicken and turkey bones. Even Dr. Billinghurst, in his rebuttal to my website, admits there is risk. In his latest book he has a disclaimer that raw bones may be hazardous. Duh! Too bad he didn't mention it in his book when he recommended that you feed your dog raw bones!

Ik wil deze cijfers beslist zien! Ik heb geen disclaimer in het boek van Ian gezien over botten. Mevrouw toont hier weer aan dat ze het boek niet gelezen heeft. Het enige dat hij disclaimt is kalkoenbotten en ossenstaarten. En ja, voeren van botten is niet zonder risico. Zie wat ik daar al eerder over heb geschreven. Het NIET voeren van botten is ook NIET zonder risico....

False: Bones won't splinter on a full stomach.
Completely untrue!  Many times jagged chunks of bone do their damage in the throat.  Dogs have died from choking on bones.  And, regarding the stomach, bones do not pass as quickly as the food.  Digested food does not protect the lining of the stomach from sharp objects. Wolves eat fur, cartilage and muscle meat along with the bones which helps prevent injury from fragments.  I'm not recommending you feed your dog bones in this manner, but it should be noted that your dog doesn't have this advantage on the barf diet.   Click here to read testimonies about dogs harmed by raw bones".

Er is nog nooit ergens geschreven dat een bot niet splintert op een volle maag. Ik geloof dat deze mevrouw graag haar eigen interpretaties maakt en niet leest wat er staat doch leest wat ze WIL lezen. Een bot kan splinteren. Punt. Wanneer je een proodier geeft met huid en haar, dan zal huid en haar de botsplinters verpakken en zal de hond deze, zonder beschadiging, uitpoepen. Een van de redenen waarom JdBL vindt dat je deze botten moet bestrooien met zemelen (zelfde werking - ongeveer). Wanneer je een bot op lege maag geeft (vooral recreatiebotten zijn berucht) en er splintert een stukje bot af, dan zal dit mogelijk de maag of dunne darm beschadigen. Ja, er is een risico. Dat het risico ZO groot is als deze mevrouw beweerd: ik geloof er geen pepernoot van... En, zie hierboven de risico's die je loopt in het leven... Ja, je loopt risico. Wil je dat niet? Maal je de botten. Houd je, om risico's te beperken, aan de beschreven regels. En, het niet geven van botten brengt ook risico's met zich mee. Hoe risicoloos wil je leven?  

False:  Cooking the meat destroys the quality of enzymes and predigests the meat.
Truth:  The benefit of meat for dogs is protein not enzyme.  Secondly, cooking the meat makes it much more digestible as raw meat has indigestible collagen proteins.  In the wild, mother dogs eat the meat from a kill and regurgitate for their pups - serving predigested meat.  In addition, raw meat is very high in fat.  Thousands of dogs die every year from Pancreatitis, and some are disabled by this disorder after being fed a raw meat diet for a short time.  Not only is raw meat high in fat, but the pancreas is made to produce enzymes.  Supplementing with too many live enzymes can cause the pancreas to shut down.  If your dog has Pancreatitis and you aren't aware of it – a high fat diet of raw meat could kill them.

Duidelijk gevalletje van te weinig boeken gelezen... Ja, koken doodt enzymen. Daar hoef je geen raket-geleerde voor te zijn om dat te begrijpen. Het dood ook vitamines en het doodt goede bacterieen. Rauw vlees is VEEL makkelijker te verteren dan gekookt vlees. Ook dat is niet zo moeilijk te begrijpen. Lees Pottenger of JdBL. Rauw vlees is niet hoog in vetgehalte. Hoe komt ze daar nou toch bij? En, verdwijnt het vet bij het koken? Schei toch uit! Het vet wordt alleen moeilijker verteerbaar door koken. En, vlees laag in vet is laag in vet. Rauw of gekookt. En ja, ik zie al die wilde carnivoren al creperen.....

[Lizzy]

Deel 5:

False: Freezing kills all parasites and bacteria.
Truth: Freezing kills some but not all parasites and does not kill most bacteria. The most dangerous parasite in raw meat is toxoplasmosis. It can kill your dog. I know of two recent cases where dogs died from this parasite after eating raw meat. Dr. Michael Harrington, a Veterinary Neurologist reported that he treated a dog with thousands of parasites from a raw meat diet, which turned to worms in his brain. An MRI showed the dog's brain looked like Swiss cheese. The parasites are usually much more dangerous than the bacteria. Cats and people are also susceptible to this parasite. Pregnant women are told not to change kitty litter when pregnant because toxoplasmosis can effect the baby. Cats who carry toxoplasmosis from eating birds and rodents, while pregnant, often birth deformed kittens.

Er is niemand die ooit geschreven heeft dat het invriezen alle parasieten, virussen en bacterieen dood. Niemand. Ja, sommige worden gedood en andere niet. Vlees dat goed gekeurd is voor menselijke consumptie bevat geen parasieten. Laten we daar even duidelijk over zijn. Dat hele verhaal over toxoplasmose slaat dus ook nergens op...

False: Grapefruit seed extract kills all dangerous bacteria.
Truth: This is completely un-scientific and unproven. Furthermore, some bacteria thrive in the acid environment of the stomach. Grapefruit Seed extract is irritating to the dog's stomach lining and the taste is bitter.

Hebben we het al over gehad.

False: Adding calcium through bone meal or bones balances the phosphorous/calcium ratio.
Truth: The phosphorous/calcium ratio in a dog's diet is one of the most critical for optimum health. It's difficult to provide an accurate balance in home-made diets. It's an uneducated, "amateur" idea to add bone meal because it contains both phosphorous and calcium, which negates any balance. There is also the threat of Mad Cow Disease in some locations. You would be better off giving them a Tums tablet or a serving of Broccoli. A few of the disorders caused by feeding raw meat are; Nutritional Secondary Hyperparahtyroidism (parathy gland) and kidney failure due to the inability of the kidney to remove high amounts of phosphorous from the body. When kidneys fail due to over abundance of phosphorous, the body compensates by robbing jaw bone for calcium to balance these circulating blood levels. This is also known as Rubber Jaw. There are also a number of osteopathic disorders.

Goed, en wat wil ze hier nu mee suggereren? Ik dacht dat ze VOOR het zelf samenstellen van maaltijden was, maar dat haar bezwaar het geven van rauw vlees was? En hoe lost zij dit probleem dan op? Broodje aap.

False: Acidophilus and FructoOligoSaccharides will also kill dangerous bacteria.
Truth: Sound impressive? Acidophilus is a "friendly" bacteria that aids in digestion. It is not a bactericide. Fructo = fruit, oligo = few or decreased, saccharides = sugar. These sugars are added to provide a food source for the acidophilus.

Heeft ook geen van de schrijvers beweerd. Deze goede bacterieen kunnen het immuunsysteem versterken. Verder dan dat heeft niemand ooit iets beweerd....

False: Pasteurization leads to arthritis. The makers of raw meat diets often suggest a meal plan that contains whole, raw dairy.
Truth: Dogs in the wild (which is the basis of the raw meat argument) do not eat dairy. They eat eggs – eggs are meat not dairy. Dogs have a very low tolerance for dairy because of the lactose. They do not produce lactase (which digests the lactose) after being weaned from their mother’s milk.

Hebben we het al over gehad.

False: Dogs drink the milk from lactating goats that have been killed.
Truth: Not many goats live in regions where large wild wolves do - unless the wolf is stealing from a farmer. The number of incidents where a wild wolf would have killed a female, lactating goat, are so few that this is not a standard ingredient of the wild dog's diet - nor should it be the domestic dog's.

Wat is DIT ineens voor vreemde eet in de bijt?

False: Dogs are carnivores
Truth: Dogs are omnivores. They eat both vegetation and meat, of which vegetation is the higher percentage. Domestic dogs do not have the same skull shape or number of teeth that wolves do. You could say they are carnivorous. Cats are true carnivores, however, that doesn't mean that raw meat is safe for them either. There are very obvious differences between cougars, lions, tigers and your housecat.

Duidelijk weer een gevalletje van de theorie niet begrijpen en de boeken niet lezen. Ian B schrijft dat een hond een carnivoor, een omnivoor een aaseter, een planteneter, een vuilnisbakken eter is. Kijk je naar het spijsverteringskanaal van de hond, dan komt deze voor 99.99% overeen met die van een wolf.

Why Wild Dogs Are Not a Good Role Model for the Domestic Dog's Diet

It sounds like a good idea to give your dog fresh, raw meat because "that's what the wild dogs eat". This is an understandable misconception, but here are a couple of facts to consider

(1) Domestic dogs do not have the same digestive enzymes as a wild dog. Our domestic dogs are removed from wolf relations by thousands of years. Dogs have been in captivity (of Man) for at least 2000 years, and surviving healthfully on cooked foods for as long as humans have. Until commercial dog food came about approximately 100 years ago, dogs in captivity ate the common food of the people. Those fed raw meat scraps often became ill back then also. This is why experienced veterinarians do not recommend it. Most breeds we have today are really of no relation to wolves since they were created by man's intervention through breeding over thousands of years. You just don't see packs of poodles, great Danes or golden retrievers in the wild. The average lifespan of a domestic dog is much longer than that of a dog in the wild. (see "can a dog overcome illness from a raw meat diet", below)

Broodje aap verhaal. Het spijsverteringssysteem van de hond evolueert niet over een paar honderd jaar. Die van die enzymen is nooit aangetoond en ik heb aangetoond (met mijn honden) dat het geklets is. Honderd jaar geleden aten honden rauw. Punt.

(2) The theory is to feed our dogs like wild dogs/wolves. However, the BARF and raw meat diets being proposed have little in common with what a wild dog/wolf eats. If you want to feed your dog like a wolf, then start shopping for worms, roots, swamp grass, rodents and fowl. Or garbage of neighboring humans. Sure, they eat vegetation including fruit and graze on grasses, but you're not likely to see them sitting down to a bowl of oatmeal and yogurt in the morning or a serving of fresh broccoli with their just killed mole. Some retail frozen raw meat products are really nothing but byproducts, and others include a menu of dairy products or are heavily supplemented with items that are believed to be healthful for humans, but not researched to determine the benefit to a dog.

Ook niet waar. Niemand heeft ooit gezegd dat BARF hetzelfde is als hoe wolven eten. Duidelijk weer een gevalletje van de boeken niet hebben gelezen....

One consistent ingredient in the many varied BARF or raw meat diets is the supplementation of dairy products. Dogs are lactose intolerant and do not produce lactase after 6-8 weeks of age. Furthermore, bovine and goat milk is nothing like canine milk. Wolves don’t eat dairy (bear in mind that eggs are not dairy, they are meat) although they would if it were available. Which brings up another point - wolves are scavengers. They are not the best judge of what's good for them and neither is your dog. They'll eat cat poop and antifreeze if you let them.

En dus? Ze schrijft hier: BARF is bagger want een wolf eet geen zuivel (niemand heeft ooit beweerd dat een hond gevoerd moet worden zoals een wolf eet) en vervolgens schrijft ze "Wolven eten alles". Huh? Wat wil ze hier nu eigenlijk mee zeggen dan?

[Lizzy]

Deel 6:

Statistics from Wolf Studies

Read what Mike Ferreira, a 20-year veteran of wolf and wolfdog studies has to say.

I myself, have done extensive studies on wolves and wolfdogs over the years. I actually own a wolfdog, myself. Chinook is a high content Timber Wolf. Wild dogs often suffer from liver, kidney, an pancreatic problems from the raw meat in their diet. The bones they eat are covered with cartilages and fur - a wolf skat (feces) looks like a hairy stick. The barf diet recommends raw, meaty chicken bones and it has killed and injured thousands of dogs. It is a WELL known fact amongst vets that dogs who eat raw bones often have dental problems ... it wears the teeth down flat, and they splinter in the jaws and gums (also throat and stomach).

Tanden slijten? Huh? JA! Als je de verkeerde botten geeft. De rest lijkt me wel een keer uitgekauwd he... deze mevrouw had haar verhaal met meer dan 3/4 in kunnen korten want ze blijft zichzelf maar herhalen.....

The barf diet that is so-called "evolutionarily correct" does not seem to coincide with the reality of evolution. Pomeranians, corgis, labs, jack russells (for example) and most of the other breeds we have today did not evolutionize from wolves over thousands of years. They are man-made breeds that have come about from our intervention with genetics. Domestic dogs are similar to wolves but there are many genetic differences --- wolves have a different dental structure (size and angle of teeth) and completely different skull measurements. From the nose to the top of their head, it’s flat with no indentation....the area by the ears is much wider than a domestic dog. Wolves mature physically at a completely different rate.

Ook al besproken.

The following quotes from Jennifer Sheldon’s "Wild Dogs, The Natural History of Nondomestic Canidae" show that many wolves and wild dogs do die of intestinal parasites which are contracted from eating raw meat. Of course, this is not the primary reason wolves die, but it does happen.

Regarding the red wolf (extinct in the wild, except for small reintroduced populations); "Their decline is thought to be due to a complex of factors including aggressive long-term control programs... and high mortality from susceptibility to parasites." (Parker, 1988; Paradiso and Nowak, 1971, 1972, Carley, 1979; Ferrell, et al., 1980)

"Parasites exact a heavy toll. Of 27 wild-caught wolves tested, all 27 had heartworm (Riley and McBride, 1972). Intestinal parasites, distemper, and mange are also widespread (Riley and McBride, 1972; Paradiso and Nowak, 1972). The high parasite burden carried by all red wolves may indicate that they were occupying marginally suitable habitat. The majority of animals captured during the intensive capture efforts of 1972 were less than 4 years old (Carley, 1979), indicating a very high mortality rate for older individuals. Paradiso and Nowak (1972) noted that there appeared to be very low levels of pup survivorship on the Texas gulf cost in the late 1960s, with most pups dying before 6 months of age. Potential lifespan, if comparable to that of free-ranging coyotes, should have been as much as 12 years."

Regarding the diet of red wolves, "…small animals such as rabbits, raccoons, and nutria, are their primary prey. The consume fish, insects, carrion, and plant material as well (Paradiso and Nowak, 1972; Carley, 1979; Riley and McBride, 1972; Shaw, 1975). Only occasionally do they prey upon ungulates.

Regarding the grey wolf;

"Disease, parasites (intestinal), starvation take their toll as well"

Regarding the maned wolf;

"In free-ranging individuals, parasites (particularly nematodes, which may destroy the kidneys), cystinuria (a potentially fatal inherited metabolic disorder), and human-caused deaths seem to be the most important factors contributing to mortality (Meritt, 1972; Dietz, 1984)." NOTE: the meat aspect of their diet was an important contributing factor to mortality!!

Om te beginnen geloof ik dit verhaal niet. Maar, dan nog wat: een wolf een prooi. Deze kan besmet zijn met parasieten. Ons vlees is goedgekeurd en bevat derhalve geen parasieten.

The Wild Dog Diet

Wild dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. It seems a small distinction, but really is not trivial. This means that they do not live on meat alone, but also feast on vegetation. Cats, by contrast, are true carnivores. Second, the meat they do eat is consumed as soon as it is caught and is obviously not a frozen product. Wild dogs have evolved somewhat of a resistance to the dangerous bacteria and parasitic infections to which they are exposed, which our domestic dogs have not. It is a documented fact through zoos and wolf experts such as Jennifer Sheldon, quoted above, that even wild dogs die and/or become ill from consuming raw meat. Not necessarily every time they eat it, but often enough for it to be of grave concern for your dog. We also know from the wild dogs taken into captivity that they are often found malnourished and unhealthy.

There is well documented evidence in the carcasses of wild dogs, and a well-known fact among veterinary doctors and scientists, that wild dogs DO choke on the bones of fowl or have them splinter in the stomach - even baby backs and necks (Washington State University, located in a rural area verifies this statement). Cooking a bone may make it more likely to splinter, however, raw bones sometimes do splinter in the throat and stomach. A more likely event is that the raw bone will be broken into small, jagged pieces which can tear the lining of the throat and stomach or become lodged in the palate.

In general, wolf and wild dog studies show that muscle meat is not always the primary source of food and that lamb and chicken are not often among the meats. Most wild dogs hunt small prey, like rabbit, birds or rodents, providing a relatively small amount of actual meat. Even bones are sometimes left behind. The first thing they do with prey is tear open the belly and eat the pre-digested greens, then the organs, then a combination of muscle meat, bones and fur. It is also important to remember that only large pack dogs like the gray or red wolves hunt large ungulates (i.e., deer, antelope). One dog could not possibly take down a 250 pound animal with their mouth while it's running at 20-30 miles per hour. They share the feast with the whole pack. The females then return to their pups and regurgitate pre-digested meat for them (contradicting Dr. Pitcarin and Billinghurst's theory that predigested meat is not healthy or normal for dogs to eat).

One of the greater dangers than even the bacteria and parasites, is the fact that a raw meat diet is extremely unbalanced. And a diet supplemented with raw meat is near impossible to keep balanced. Our pet dogs are privileged to be protected from the nutritional deficiencies that wild dogs face.

Thank you for taking the time to read this information. I wish you and your pets healthy and happy lives!

Volgens mij hebben we het hier al uitgebreid over gehad.... En, een BARF dieet is niet gebalanceerd? Huh? Nu doet ze ineens net alsof we alleen vlees en botten voeren.

Maar, vatten jullie de CATCH nu? Deze mevrouw is VOOR het zelfsamenstellen van maaltijden, als je het vlees maar kookt. Denk even goed na... Ze schrijft nu dat een rauw dieet niet gebalanceerd is....! Is een gekookt zelfsamengestelde maaltijd WEL gebalanceerd? Hoe dan? Het enige verschil is dat het een rauw vlees bevat en de ander gekookt! Wordt een menu van gekookt vlees ineens PLOTSELING gebalanceerd? NEE dus. Mevrouw is niet voor zelf samenstellen. Mevrouw is voor brokken!

Mensen, we worden beduveld door deze mevrouw. Ik kan je 1 ding voorspellen: deze mevrouw werkt voor de brokken industrie. Wedden?!

[Lizzy]

Sorry Anna, er blijft (in mijn ogen) helemaal NIETS overeind staan van dit domme verhaal....

[geer]

Go Lizzy!!! Heb hier een teiltje ijsblokjes neergezet om he vingers even in te hagen

[Lizzy]

Go Lizzy!!! Heb hier een teiltje ijsblokjes neergezet om he vingers even in te hagen  ;D

Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhh! Lekker, dank je!
Groetjes, Lizzy

[Lizzy]

Hoi Roger, ik wed niet met jou! Ben ik een bak Trappist kwijt! Ik denk namelijk dat je gelijk hebt....

Wat dacht je van het volgende Roger?:

"wie kan bewijzen dat mevrouw bij Flint (of een ander brokkenbedrijf) werkt, krijgt een bak Belgisch bier naar eigen keuze".

Groetjes, Lizzy

[roger]

Das afgesproken Liz.

Bewijs hebben we nog niet maar ik denk dat we er kort opzitten, ze maakt in ieder geval serieus reklame voor Flint op haar http.

Gr.
Roger

[Eidos]

GO LIZZY GO LIZZY

[geer]

Ik ga winnuuuuuu!!! Heb mevrouw net een slijmerig Engels mailtje gestuurd, gezegd dat ik gefascineerd was door haar artikel en nu hard op zoek was naar een goed merk brok...of zij nog iets wist. Heb mezelf een prachtige Engelse naam (Geary) gegeven en gezegd dat ik uit Ohio kom... Als ze nou niet met haar merk op de proppen komt

[Anna]

Geary, what about your IP number??

[Anna]

Lizzy, super hoe je het bullshitgehalte van dit verhaal hier hebt aangetoond!  Maar jij bent natuurlijk onze "versvleesspecialist"!!  Blij dat we jou hebben...

Heb natuurlijk ook ff zitten zoeken naar de activiteiten van deze Katie Merwick, maar voorlopig denk ik dat Flint River Ranch "gewoon" haar Second Chance Ranch sponsort en dat zijzelf aan haar eigen Ranch genoeg werk heeft...  Maar misschien ook niet!  :-/

Groetjes,

Anna.

PS: Zoek allemaal maar verder, want ik wil het graag weten!  :D

[geer]

Ach, alsof ze daar op let.. En anders zeg ik wel dat ik een expat ben uit Ohio, die voor zaken een tijdje in Amsterdam vertoeft

[qyan]

Ik ga winnuuuuuu!!! Heb mevrouw net een slijmerig Engels mailtje gestuurd, gezegd dat ik gefascineerd was door haar artikel en nu hard op zoek was naar een goed merk brok...of zij nog iets wist. Heb mezelf een prachtige Engelse naam (Geary) gegeven en gezegd dat ik uit Ohio kom... Als ze nou niet met haar merk op de proppen komt  ;D

8) 8)

[Paul_Barte]

haha die Wendy...en met een Nederlands IP-adres maar dat zal die muts toch wel niet kunnen zien.

Hoop wel dat je een Hotmailadres hebt opgegeven en geen wanadoo.nl of zoiets